French Family Values

Paul Krugman writes about France:

French Family Values - New York Times: [G]iven all the bad-mouthing the French receive, you may be surprised that I describe their society as "productive." Yet according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, productivity in France - G.D.P. per hour worked - is actually a bit higher than in the United States. It's true that France's G.D.P. per person is well below that of the United States. But that's because French workers spend more time with their families.

O.K., I'm oversimplifying a bit. There are several reasons why the French put in fewer hours of work... some of the French would like to work, but can't: France's unemployment rate, which tends to run about four percentage points higher than the U.S. rate, is a real problem... many French citizens retire early. But the main story is that full-time French workers work shorter weeks and take more vacations than full-time American workers.

The point is that to the extent that the French have less income than we do, it's mainly a matter of choice... let's ask how the situation of a typical middle-class family in France compares with that of its American counterpart. The French family, without question, has lower disposable income.... But there are compensations for this lower level of consumption. Because French schools are good across the country, the French family doesn't have to worry as much about getting its children into a good school district. Nor does the French family, with guaranteed access to excellent health care, have to worry about losing health insurance or being driven into bankruptcy by medical bills.

Perhaps even more important, however, the members of that French family are compensated for their lower income with much more time together. Fully employed French workers average about seven weeks of paid vacation a year. In America, that figure is less than four.

So which society has made the better choice?...

Alberto Alesina and Edward Glaeser, at Harvard, and Bruce Sacerdote, at Dartmouth... write: "It is hard to obtain more vacation for yourself from your employer and even harder, if you do, to coordinate with all your friends to get the same deal and go on vacation together." And they even offer some statistical evidence that working fewer hours makes Europeans happier, despite the loss of potential income.

It's not a definitive result, and as they note, the whole subject is "politically charged." But let me make an observation: some of that political charge seems to have the wrong sign. American conservatives despise European welfare states like France. Yet many of them stress the importance of "family values." And whatever else you may say about French economic policies, they seem extremely supportive of the family as an institution. Senator Rick Santorum, are you reading this?

Comments

[sm]

But how are the French on using public money to assure that this generation's rich families become next generation's entrenched aristocracy?

[Richard Green]

I liked the column, and for that matter, I like France, and envy its lifestyle.

But I think Krugman skates over the four percentage point differential in unemployment rates too lightly. France has a particular problem with chronic unemployment among its young workers--this cannot be socially desirable. Moreover, France's superior labor productivity is almost surely a function of the fact that the marginal worker in the US would be unemployed in the US and that that marginal hour worked by a worker in the US would not be worked by a worker in France.

I have long thought the the optimal society would be some convex combination of the US and France (or even better, Italy). But neither, alone, is an ideal.

[fringy]

Personally I'm jealous.

[Richard Green]

Oops, I meant to say

that the marginal worker in the US would be unemployed in France

[a different chris]

>But neither, alone, is an ideal.

Very true. The thing that really bothers me is that other countries (from Old to New Europe and much of the Pacific Rim) try to learn from each other. Tony Blair maybe has no less than a gift for picking exactly the wrong lessons from the US, but at least he's engaged in the correct activity.

But here in the US nobody can tell us nothing we don't know already, apparently. And that isn't a prescription for the future, no matter where on the hill you happen to be at the moment.

I don't even want to get into health care, but let's look at SS. Can it be better? I dunno, so it would be logical to look around a bit.

But do we survey the Nordic systems, do we look at France's regulated-but-privately-adminstered public pensions (I may have completely messed that up, but whatever it is France does).

No, we look at freaking Galveston, Texas. Oh, and Chile, because it's so similar (snark) to America.

[Davis X. Machina]

American conservatives despise European welfare states like France. Yet many of them stress the importance of "family values."

They say one thing with their mouths, and another in their hearts. Guess which one is which....

[Jason]

No need to split hairs here. The point is that France actually has family friendly policies. Healthcare, daycare, and vacation time. Despite our pledge of family values, we don't do much to actually help families.

[Jean-Philippe Stijns]

"that the marginal worker in the US would be unemployed in France"

Even brushing aside issues regarding the measurement of unemployment in the US and France, and assuming this is right, one question remains: what kind of job, working conditions and wages does this marginal worker "enjoy"? I mean that the real issue could boil down to how much a society cares about poverty and in what way. I don't pretend to have the ultimate answer to those questions, but I sure know that France's unemployed look in much better shape than America's bums.

[otto]

Why not have it all? Become a professor in an American university, have all that extra consumption and coordinate to go on holidays with your friends 26 weeks of the year!

[anne]

What a perfect essay. Imagine finally coming to understand that the french may really prefer to differ with us and actually have something to offer us in the difference :)

[Karlsfini]

Brad, let me answer for Rick Santorum -- he's not reading this. He absolutely does not want to be informed.

A long time ago, a friend who dropped out of school in the ninth grade was working in a truss-shop (building the trusses that support roofs.) I was still in school and every summer I needed a job.

My friend came up with a solution: he'd work nine-months, take the summers off and I'd take his place. We promised to lower costs -- because I would make less -- and also to increase production. The boss liked the idea, except he said he couldn't stand the thought of having to work all year round himself while someone under him got the summers off.

A lot of American dislike France -- and most of Europe, for that matter -- because they have a sneaking suspicion people are better off over there.

[Hederman]

And no mention of France's debt? Krugman is rightfully fearful of the structural US deficit. But to say what a great system France has because their workers have so many goverment goodies AND ignore France's debt is just foolish.

France is in much, much worse shape than the US. Their way of life is simply not sustainable as Krugman well knows.

The OECD is very concerned about France's long-term fiscal health with their budget deficit over 50% of GDP.

If Krugman rails about the US deficit, then he should mention how France is even worse.

[howard]

it's always an exciting moment to see what particular asinine direction patrick sullivan's critique will come from! sadly, although the names of the characters change, the plot is always the same, being based on a dishoenst rendering of the facts.

meanwhile, i was actually wondering to what extent French families need 7 weeks of vacation together to recover from the exhausting other45 weeks when everyone is busy having an affair?

[peter]

Silly Patrick, the 5% comment was a time series comparison between 5% now and 5% 5 years ago because of labor demand. In this column, Krugman is making a cross sectional comparison based on peoples' disutility of labor. Time series and cross sectional comparisons are not always (nor even often) the same.

[anne]

Ah, Howard, you do imagine well :)

[user]

FYI, in his "Has Globalization Gone Too Far?", Rodrik has a good discussion of the tradeoffs associated with the "French System".

[anne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/17/international/europe/17bridge.html?ex=1261026000&en=d2dccf1bbda57a80&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

Above the Clouds, the French Glimpse the Old Grandeur
By ELAINE SCIOLINO

MILLAU, France - Higher than the Eiffel Tower, longer than the Champs-Élysées, the Millau bridge is a triumph of engineering, imagination and will.

For President Jacques Chirac, the soaring butterfly of steel and concrete that spans the Tarn Valley is nothing less than an "audacious" work of art and a symbol of "a modern and conquering France."

No matter that the man who designed the bridge, the world's highest, is Norman Foster, a 69-year-old British lord and perhaps Britain's most famous modernist architect.

The engineers were French. And in a country yearning to recapture some of its historic grandeur, its official opening on Thursday brought a spirit of giddy celebration to this remote region of southern France.

Construction workers on the project whistled and waved their hard hats in a sign of welcome to maiden voyagers. Drivers waved back, honking their horns long and loud. Tourists and truck drivers got out of their vehicles to take pictures, oblivious to the security guards who ordered them to move along.

"This is a work of art that touches all of us," said Thomas Ercker, a foreman who worked on the project for more than two years. "There is only one time in your life you can do something like this. I am convinced that we've created a jewel. I have goose bumps all over."

Patrice Ficheux, the head of a road security company from Lyon, drove four hours with his wife in their 1959 vintage Jaguar to be among the first to cross.

"I wanted to give my car an adventure in the mountains," he said after making the brief crossing. "I had this wonderful feeing of security, as if someone were holding an arm around my shoulder."

Slender, graceful, even fragile-looking, the gently-curving bridge was built in only three years, the product of computer design technology, global satellite positioning and lighter, high-tech materials that shortened the timetable and cut costs.

The deck for the four-lane road is made from a new high grade of steel instead of concrete. Transparent aerodynamic windscreens protect vehicles from high winds and let travelers savor the rugged landscape.

The pale color of the construction allows it to blend with the sky, giving it a transparent feel. At its highest point - 1,125 feet from the bottom of the valley to the top of the pylon atop the tallest pillar - the bridge is more than 50 feet higher than the Eiffel Tower.

"It had to be very light, very delicate, but immensely strong," said Lord Foster by telephone from London. "The driving experience is close to flying. The trip across the valley is like that of a bird." ...

[John Evans]

"...France's unemployment rate, which tends to run about four percentage points higher than the U.S. rate..."

How does the unemployment rate in France actually compare to ours? Is it possible that their calculation fails to count as many unemployed people as ours does?

[anne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/17/international/europe/17bridge.html?ex=1261026000&en=d2dccf1bbda57a80&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

Millau (pop. 22,000) is best known as a traffic nightmare on an uncompleted highway route from northern to southern France. The 15-mile stretch up and down the valley can take three hours in the summer, breaking the spirit of even the toughest road warrior.

The completion of the bridge will cut the trip to under 20 minutes. If political and financial hurdles can be surmounted, the bridge eventually will serve as a link in a superhighway from Paris to Barcelona.

For Jacques Godfrain, the mayor of Millau, the bridge could rid his town of the negative image it has suffered for years.

It is here in 2002 that José Bové, the sheep farmer and union leader who is France's leading opponent of globalization, organized the bulldozing of a McDonald's restaurant to protest the Americanization of France. The McDonald's was rebuilt and is now one of the top 10 most popular of the more than 1,000 McDonald's outlets in the country.

"For years we were nobody in the capital of nowhere," said Mr. Godfrain, who wore a tie with silhouettes of bridge designs and has written a novel about bridges. "Now we're the bridge capital of the world."

Mr. Godfrain has designed a New Year's greeting card with an outline of the bridge and the message, "God gives us hands, but he doesn't build bridges."

In the past 18 months, an estimated 500,000 tourists have come to watch the bridge under construction. Residents in Millau hope its opening will encourage tourists to visit the town and inject fresh money into struggling businesses.

Until the 1960's, for example, Millau was known as the French capital for the manufacture of luxury kid gloves, but now few glove makers remain.

"For me, the bridge is double or nothing," said Mary Beyer, who runs the Lavabre Cadet atelier, which produces hand-made luxury gloves for French couture houses and for selected markets abroad.

Here, a pair of rhinestone-studded suede gloves sells for $360, a pair of nutria-trimmed black kid gloves for about $600. The gloves would sell for two to four times as much in New York or Tokyo, she said.

"Millau must get the travelers to stop and see what we can offer," Ms. Beyer said. "If they take the bridge only to pass through quickly, it will be an economic catastrophe."

On a national scale, at least, the French have already started to use the bridge as a selling tool for France.

The Tour de France announced recently that its annual bicycle race will be routed under the bridge next year....

[Jussi]

Hederman:

"The OECD is very concerned about France's long-term fiscal health with their budget deficit over 50% of GDP"

You must be thinking of their national debt. France's budget deficit is around 4% of GDP.

(And I think they run a trade surplus, which can't be a bad thing)

[quartz]

Hederman,

In 2004 France's budget deficit was 3.6% of GDP. In 2004, the U.S. budget deficit was .... 3.6% of GDP.

[bellumregio]

anne, how right. Is the Chicago-School-in-Chile-laissez-faire model the only one for the planet? Are the only values worth having those that max per capita income? The Frenchmen I know certainly would like to increase employment (that is the same across Europe) but they do not want to live like Americans or have American capitalism. An Italian friend who was thinking of taking a lucrative job in the US thought it was just too primitive after living here for about a year. Even in Britain, where my family lives, I don’t know anyone who envies the work-life of Americans even for the added pocket money. That was not the case when my father first came to work in the US in the 1960’s. But no one really thinks to condemn what Americans do in their own country. The national chauvinist discussion and comparison is really an America obsession. American’s seem sure that their national values are universal to mankind and perhaps derived from scripture.

[Jussi]

Anne:

"The 15-mile stretch up and down the valley can take three hours in the summer, breaking the spirit of even the toughest road warrior"

With respect, the writer has obviously not seen the legendary 70-100 km tailbacks they get in Germany in the summer holidays.

They even made a comedy movie about it, called "Stau!", if I remember correctly.

[Jussi]

Jason:

"Despite our pledge of family values, we don't do much to actually help families"

What do American conservatives mean by "family values"?

[A. Zarkov]

To have family values you need have a family, and assuming that means having children the EU in general and France with it comes up short. The average number of children per woman in the EU is 1.4 well below the replacement rate of 2.1. And the French like other industrialized nations also have a high divorce rate.

Krugman also assumes that more vacation time means more time spent with the family. How does he know this? Perhaps Frenchman want more vacation so they can spend more time with their mistresses.

[anne]

Jussi

There you are again; lovely. I will look to find your film.

Bellumregio

Nicely said. I am perfectly willing to be French after all :)

[Hederman]

sorry, meant debt when i said deficit. Their overall debt and future deficit is much worse than the American model.
Furthermore, France is projected to fall even further behind the US over the next several years. France is in for some very rough years unless they adopt some major tax and labor reforms. France is a terrible place to find employment if you're a younger worker.

There are some admirable things about the Euro model, but this essay ignores current reality in France.

[andy]

The key question here seems to be whether, if you want to work 70% as much and get 70% as much stuff, you will be able to continue to do so or whether the (percentage-wise) amount of stuff you'll get for working 70% as much will continually drop -- i.e. whether the "French system" (perhaps, as an academic question, divorced from other aspects of the French economy for our current purposes) is sustainable.

I don't know the answer to this -- perhaps someone with more knowledge of economics and globalization can give it a try.

I would guess that your economy would grow more slowly than the "harder working" nations and so, while you'll get more stuff for your same 70% work as time goes on, you'll fall further behind. Of course, we shouldn't be so quick to make a moral judgement that this would be bad, but I suspect that this sort of slower growth is more unpleasant when you have faster growing neighbors than when everyone's in the same boat.

I could be very wrong here and some sort of global mobility could allow a "France system" nation to, to some extent, enjoy the faster growth of other nations while keeping their shorter work-week and thus sustain the 70%. (Or, who knows, it could be worse than I thought and they wouldn't even be able to keep their current wealth as business moves elsewhere.)

[anne]

Hederman

What express reforms do you have in mind for France in terms of tax structure and the labor market? Employment for younger job applicants is definitely a problem. Interestingly, the French stock market has done just fine in Euros or dollars over the last decade.

[anne]

I have wondered whether there might be far more small business creation in France were there more encouragement.

[Jussi]

A. Zarkov:

"Krugman also assumes that more vacation time means more time spent with the family. How does he know this? Perhaps Frenchman want more vacation so they can spend more time with their mistresses"

How mischievous! :-)

But does he also assume that the extra time Americans spend 'at work' is actually spent 'doing work'?

He does, after all, note that US productivity is lower than that of the French, so do Americans suffer from similar distractions, but in other places? :-)

(apologies, but I couldn't resist that, hehehe!)

[PaulC]

A. Zarkov: "To have family values you need have a family, and assuming that means having children the EU in general and France with it comes up short."

Actually, France has one of the highest birth rates in Europe. Globally, it is ranked 171 at 12.34 live births/1000. The US is ranked 157 at 14.13.

See http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=fr&v=25

For comparison:
Netherlands 180/11.41
UK 184/10.88
Poland 187/10.64
Sweden 192/10.46
Spain 195/10.11
Italy 210/9.05
Germany 215/8.45

Iceland and Ireland are higher. I haven't looked carefully for others.

[Hederman]

anne:

Less regulation of the labor force.
Reduced power of unions. I think this would help younger workers find jobs. I think they're currently locked out of the labor force and hence the anemic participation rates of younger workers.
Tax reform and which may or may not include tax cuts. It's an inefficient tax system and just streamlining the system could help. Then you could look at reducing some of the taxes.

I've read several OECD reports on France and agree with many of their policies. France is my favorite country to visit and I would hate to see some things change(particularly the agricultural products). But France must change and enact some measured pro-market reforms.

[anne]

Another perspective of Millau:

http://travel2.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/travel/17millau.html?ex=1123300800&en=7543fe34f81ad87a&ei=5070&emc=eta1

A Soaring Bridge Puts an Ancient Town Back on the Map
By ELAINE SCIOLINO

A DELICATE butterfly of concrete and steel, the Viaduct of Millau soars across the sky as if eager to proclaim that no bridge on earth is taller. Yet its arrogant daring can surely be forgiven. It took a feat of engineering and a leap of the imagination to span the rough, rugged Tarn Valley in the Midi-Pyrénées region of southern France.

The result is breathtaking.

The gently curving structure dominating the skyline is best appreciated from a distance. When it comes into view, its appearance is always a surprise.

My favorite perch is a wooden bench at the edge of Peyre, a tiny medieval village a few miles away. From there, the curved white suspension cables of the bridge blend so easily with a blue sky that when the sun is just right, the cables magically disappear, one after the other.

But from almost any angle, the Millau bridge radiates energy. On the approach by car on the A75 from Montpellier, for example, the bridge suddenly sneaks up from around a curve. On the drive along the winding road to the cheese-making town of Roquefort, it abruptly hovers overhead....

[Jason]

Jussi, I actually have no idea what republicans really mean by family values. I think, like Krugman, that family values means more time, money, and support for things families need most like childcare, healthcare, and education.

Hederman, you bring up the difficulites of young workers in France, but where in the world is there a good job market for young workers? Does anyone have comparative numbers for young workers in France and the US? Was I still "young" when I got my first decent job at 25 after years of retail and temporary hell?

[Jussi]

Anne:

"I will look to find your film"

What for? It was for low-level German consumption, not US academics like you :-)

[anne]

Hederman,

What you suggest reform needs is important, and it would not occur to me you do not care about France. I too will play more actively with structural change possibilities.

PaulC,

There is a reason to always have data about.

[howard]

A. Zarkov, your point is not well taken.

Having "family values" does not require having a "family," although exactly how many French don't have families?

I assume you meant to say, given your reference to brith rates (and kudos to PaulC for demolishing that argument) is that to have "family values" you have to have "children." I have no idea why you would think that.

It is entirely possible to have children and have awful "family values" and it is entirely possible not to have children and have exceptional "family values." Why do you think otherwise?

PS. I also disagree with the mistress contention, as you'll see in my earlier posting (9:06 a.m.). The vacations are family time; it's the other 45 weeks a year during which adultery takes place!

And Hederman, sure France needs to change some policies. So do we. but that wasn't krugman's topic today; his topic today was the complexity of comparing social well-being on as limited a basis as gdp.

[Jussi]

Jason:

"I actually have no idea what republicans really mean by family values."

I'm jumping into icy water here, but I think they mean something along the lines of "families that pray together, stay together", and not that the government should help families financially.

(it's not as if Krugman doesn't know this)

I think, like Krugman, that family values means more time, money, and support for things families need most like childcare, healthcare, and education

[Jussi]

Apologies, the last paragraph in that post should have been deleted.

[anne]

Jussi, then to interfere with dear Howard for a moment, there is a significant and growing Chinese influence in France and here is an idea for both of us in terms of a film:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/27/movies/MoviesFeatures/27balz.html

Artistic Odyssey: Film to Fiction to Film
By ALAN RIDING

DREUX, France - Novels are routinely adapted for the screen. What is rare is for a best-selling writer to direct the movie version of his own book. Dai Sijie's experience, though, was still more unusual. He was a filmmaker who turned to fiction because his movie career was faltering. Now the worldwide success of his first novel, "Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress," has put his movie career back on track.

"It's one thousand times more difficult to make a film than to write a book," he said. And by that, he also meant making his movie version of "Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress," which opens on Friday in New York.

Not that either was easy. Mr. Dai moved to France from China in 1984 to study Western art, then cinema. He has lived here ever since, though not as a political exile: he retains a Chinese passport and is free to travel home. Yet when he sought permission to shoot his first three Chinese-language films in China, he was rebuffed. They were eventually made, two of them in France and one in Vietnam. None did well.

When he decided to try fiction, then, he was above all chasing an audience. So, somewhat daringly, he wrote in French, a language he speaks fluently but with a heavy accent. The gamble paid off. The French loved the novel, and it has been translated into 25 languages....

[anne]

Well, a fine French-Chinese film for us:

http://movies2.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/movies/29balz.html

Is Mozart Thinking of Chairman Mao?
By A. O. SCOTT

The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, which convulsed China in the late 1960's and early 70's, has earned a special place in the annals of monstrous modern ideological experiments, not only for its cruelty but also for its absurdity.

That second trait figures prominently in the early scenes of "Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress," Dai Sijie's tender, touching adaptation of his own novel of the same title. Ma and Luo are two young men sent to a tiny mountain village for a program of re-education that includes hauling buckets of sewage up a steep, rocky path and working long hours in a broken-down mine. On the day of their arrival, the village chief inspects their meager belongings, tossing a cookbook into the fire - "Revolutionary peasants have no use for your bourgeois reactionary chicken!" - and threatening to do the same to Ma's violin. The young man saves his instrument by playing a sonata, which Luo tells the chief is called "Mozart Is Thinking of Chairman Mao." "Yes," the chief replies, not wanting to appear ignorant, "Mozart is always thinking of Chairman Mao."

"Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress," which has spent several years on the festival circuit, is partly about the desire, in such repressive circumstances, to think of Mozart - and, more generally, to think and feel freely. Luo (Chen Kun) and Ma (Liu Ye) are the children of urban professionals who have been declared "enemies of the people" - Luo's father is classified as a "reactionary dentist" - and they do their best to fit in with the suspicious and illiterate peasants. Mr. Dai, who based the novel and film on his own experience during the Cultural Revolution (and who has lived in Paris since the 1980's), avoids easy stereotypes, casting an affectionate, nostalgic glow on all his characters....

[Jussi]

Anne:

"there is a significant and growing Chinese influence in France..."

Their influence seems to be growing almost everywhere. But there are practically no Chinese where I live.

(so far as I know, and the statistice office bears me out)

[Jussi]

sorry, but I am very angry about that typo :-(

[anne]

Well, it is interesting how Ireland or France might begin to attract Chinese visitors and residents, but Spain or Finland might not. Ireland and France after all attract Chinese as far as I can tell for quite different reasons, technology and the arts. But, Finland is stunningly productive in music and the Chinese are fully aware of Finnish composition. Then too the Nordic countries are intently looking to increase trade with China. Your turn will come, I expect :)

[wvmcl]

I have been hearing from American conservatives for at least 40 years that the European system is unsustainable and is on the verge of collapse. Funny how Europe just seems to keep creeping along somehow.

The reason American conservatives despise Western Europe is simple: these countries are the living proof that most conserative shibboleths are dead wrong (health care, gun control, death penalty, sex education, teaching evolution, etc. etc. etc. ). Despite doing everything that conservatives say will bring society crashing down, the Europeans continue to lead happier, healthier, and safer lives than we do.

[Captain Button]

What are Republican family values?

What I've generally seen being pushed as promoting "family values":

No sex education in schools
No sex on TV, or in movies
No induced abortions
No contraceptives legally available to anyone
No tolerance of gay marriage, gay human rights, or gay anything

Makes sense, more kids means more families, right? Although to be proper, you may need a hurry-up wedding.

No divorce
No shelters for abused women
Discouragement of women working outside the home

Can't have families breaking up, can we, now?

Or, in terms of the "ownership society":

Husband own their wives
Parents own their children

[anne]

With spelling a certain creativity is called for if we are to be interesting, and "statistice" has a French flavor to it :)

Howard

The idea that French productivity is higher than American productivity needs to be given serious attention, so your emphasis on choice of economic structure corresponding to social values become even more important.

[bellumregio]

Hederman,
Many of the reforms you suggest are on the table in France. Thierry Breton has discussed them widely, but not to the point of “reducing the power of unions” which are seen as natural organizations of working people. In the US I get the impression they are regarded as a form of cheating. Sarkozy is also very keen on market-oriented reforms a la Tony Blair. As my friend Julien says “But it iz incredible zat it ‘az lasted zo long”.

So Captain Button does this thing have a name?
Victorianism as ideology? Which is interesting. One the reasons the Tories are disliked is their ‘icky’ quality- a kind of soggy stodgy Victorianism. Chirac is unpopular in part because he has Gaullist ‘ickyness’. But in the Land of the Free it comes across as vital, strident, and terrible.

[David]

It seems to me that an important issue is being ignored. America's capitalist culture is behind much of the technological and scientific advacements that we export to the world (there's a reason I don't own a French-made computer, a French-made television, or a French-made car). What does French reliance on technology developed in more capitalist-friendly countries (US, Japan, India) say about the viability of an economy that prides itself on working less and having more fun?

[walons]

howard,

PaulC didn't demolish Zarkov's argument about birth-rates, although he might think he did. He merely points out that France is dying less quickly than the rest of Europe. The difference between the US and France fertility rates may be small, but the US is just above replacement level, while France is below it.

[anne]

"What does French reliance on technology developed in more capitalist-friendly countries (US, Japan, India) say about the viability of an economy that prides itself on working less and having more fun?"

This is a clever question, but is France, or alas even Sweden, not as capitalist-friendly as Japan or India, or even America? Are there no French companies that are capitalist or competitive? Do we not rely on critical French drugs and chemicals? Is there no viable French energy or telecom company?

[PaulC]

walons: He merely points out that France is dying less quickly than the rest of Europe.

First, I never claimed to "demolish" any argument, only to bring some facts to bear on it. I remembered reading that France had a relatively high birthrate compared to other European countries, and spent a few minutes searching for figures to verify it. Zarkov explicitly conflated the French birth rate with Europe as a whole, and this does strike me as misleading when you look at the numbers.

Second, is an instantaneous lower-than-replacement birthrate, really the same as dying out? Is it possible that after the population goes below a certain level, people will choose to increase the birthrate back up to replacement rate? Last time I looked in my car it had both a brake and a gas pedal, and I use both of them.

[anne]

Edward Hugh, who writes on demographic influences on economics, has noted that birth rates may fluctuate above and below replacement value, but there is a level below replacement at which there have been no observed further bounces back. France is in a reasonable range, where Germany is too far below for instance. Nonetheless, France is simply an attractive country to these eyes and likely to be for quite quite quite a while. Wandering through Paris is more than pleasing.

[d. liman]

I liked the article, but wonder how the french model is sustainable in this globalized/WTO world. Isn't it LESS likely that companies will want to locate/create jobs in France? It seems that the rest of the world (i.e. East/South asia) are moving towards the U.S. model, I'm not sure how the generous welfare economies of western europe will compete in this climate. As it is, they are already losing jobs to eastern europe.

[dai]

I liked the article, but wonder how the french model is sustainable in this globalized/WTO world. Isn't it LESS likely that companies will want to locate/create jobs in France? It seems that the rest of the world (i.e. East/South asia) are moving towards the U.S. model, I'm not sure how the generous welfare economies of western europe will compete in this climate. As it is, they are already losing jobs to eastern europe.

[Puneet Kakkar]

While this article highlights good comparisons between American and French families, I believe that one should also be aware of the inequalities between both countries. Granted, the United States has its fair share of economic inequality, France's problems with income gaps result in serious consequences to international security.

A stroll outside of Paris would include walks through some highly underprivileged ghettos -- that are not only economically, but culturally and politically marginalized from "la France." The "French family" can be doing quite well, but those living in the segregated immigrant communities wouldn't agree. Not only are they economically disadvantaged, but they are also isolated by prevalent (and in many cases, overt) racism. It is in these environments that produce transnational terrorists -- individuals who are economically separated, culturally marginalized, and politically isolated, and have no other recourse of belonging other than radicalist and violent agendas.

[Puneet Kakkar]

While this article highlights good comparisons between American and French families, I believe that one should also be aware of the inequalities between both countries. Granted, the United States has its fair share of economic inequality, France's problems with income gaps result in serious consequences to international security.

A stroll outside of Paris would include walks through some highly underprivileged ghettos -- that are not only economically, but culturally and politically marginalized from "la France." The "French family" can be doing quite well, but those living in the segregated immigrant communities wouldn't agree. Not only are they economically disadvantaged, but they are also isolated by prevalent (and in many cases, overt) racism. It is in these environments that produce transnational terrorists -- individuals who are economically separated, culturally marginalized, and politically isolated, and have no other recourse of belonging other than radicalist and violent agendas.

[howard]

just to clear up a small point by now that several people have responded to: Zarkov's claim was that replacement rate was 2.1 and that France obviously was well below that.

PaulC noted that the French birth rate was quite comparable to the American birth rate (which has been helped by higher immigrant birth rates), and so Zarkov's implicit point - we cannot take the French seriously, they are unbreeding themselves into historical irrelevance unlike us americans - was demolished.

a trickier point in its place - what does "replacement" level mean? - and a further trickier point still - what if we don't replace population but instead watch it decline very slightly and end up with an older population mix? is that good or bad? - are whole other matters.

The relevant matter is (thanks as always anne) the question of how societies choose to organize themselves and what their priorities are. Hell, i haven't been in France for 30 years now, and i have no idea whether i would like today's france or not, but it's certainly clear that they have made a set of choices that work perfectly well for them, and in ways that challenging certain political orthodoxies in america. someday, this kind of thing will be a permissible topic for public discussion again....

and btw, did my eyes deceive me, or did i see patrick sullivan actually crack a pretty amusing remark at 2:06? monkeys and shakespeare....

[A. Zarkov]

“... the Europeans continue to lead happier, healthier, and safer lives than we do ...”

They are certainly not safer, if “safe” means free from crime. A couple of years ago I browsed the Interpol web site and noted homicide rates for most European countries. According to Interpol, Belgium had a slightly higher homicide rate than the US, while Scotland (but not the whole UK) had triple the US rate. Other countries came in both higher and lower than the US. For non-lethal crimes Europe has more of a problem than the US. The UK in particular has much higher rate of home than the US. Alas when I went back to the Interpol site, I found that data is no longer available on line.

I don’t why Europeans would be more or less happier than Americans, but if you really believe all that, why don’t you emigrate? That way you will make more room for foreigners to come to this unhappy, unhealthy and dangerous place.

If someone has better luck at the Interpol site, then please share.

[Karlsfini]

A Zarkov, "For non-lethal crimes Europe has more of a problem than the US."

Sorry you couldn't find the source for that. You might try this site:

http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/

The graphs download as Exel files. (And despite declining homocide rates, the U.S. still has twice as many murders per 100,000 as Belgium.)

Still, as the site points out, it's extremely difficult to compare crime statistics because of country-to-country differences.

Arguing about who is safer is rather silly, since individual behavior is more of a factor than location. Besides, fear is mainly a Republican obsession.

"Why don't you emigrate?" That's for weenies. Let's stick around and make things better.

[bellumregio]

To my knowledge Interpol now only releases crime statistics to law enforcement. But here are some stats from the British Home Office report for 2001. Average homicides per 100,000 persons for 1999-2001 were Belgium (1.23), Scotland (2.16), England and Wales (1.16) and the US (5.56 excluding 9/11/2001). European average is 1.59. In Europe Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Russia have higher homicide rates than the US.

[anne]

Thank you Howard and Patrick :)

As though it were a masted ship. Oh my.

[kb]

"Sorry you couldn't find the source for that. You might try this site:

http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/"

I'd be wary about some of these figures. The scottish figure is too high for homicide by a factor of 7.

The figure given of 14.3 would give Scotland around 715 murders a year. The actual figure is around 100 murders a year.

[FerrisB]

There's no one-shot answer to the question of whether the US or France has the better employment system-- that's largely subjective, and it has a lot to do with how one prefers to spend the weekends. But I will say this: I hear a lot about how the US has "superior efficiency" and higher productivity compared to Europe with our longer hours, and I don't buy it.

As Krugman was hinting at, the French spend less time at work, but overall they seem to get more *done* in the same block of time than US workers. For some poor schlub in Chicago who's been working 12 hour days with little sleep or nutritious food, it's awfully tough to be efficient by the time Thursday morning rolls around.

Also, work stress has a devastating effect on Americans' health, way out of proportion to what people in Europe suffer. The constant drumbeat of work stress (and the awful cutthroat culture of so many companies) literally kills people by driving adrenaline and cortisone levels through the roof, causing high blood pressure and wreaking havoc on cardiac health and the immune system. Plus, people have less time to exercise, and eat and smoke more to battle the frustration. So it's questionable how much the US is really gaining economically from all those extra hours; it gives us a GDP boost right now, but it also means that we have among the worst health outcomes of modern developed countries, despite our tremendous investment in health care. So whatever we gain in GDP from the extra hours today, we lose a big fraction of later due to added health costs linked to overwork. Diminishing returns in the making.

[FerrisB]

"But I think Krugman skates over the four percentage point differential in unemployment rates too lightly. "

You can't make a direct comparison between the unemployment rates in France and the USA-- apples and oranges. We use different statistics. In the US we count only those people actively seeking employment, while in general in Europe, they count not only this group but also people who've given up seeking work, or who are capable of working but not (for various reasons). Thus, using Europe's calculations, the US unemployment levels would be a good deal higher. Not as high as France, but still not *that* much different from the levels in Western Europe.

[FerrisB]

"America's capitalist culture is behind much of the technological and scientific advacements that we export to the world (there's a reason I don't own a French-made computer, a French-made television, or a French-made car)."

The French were inventors of some of the earliest motion pictures, still photography, hot-air balloons, early computers (punch-card devices), advances in chemistry and so on. There's a reason they call it "pasteurization." France never reached the scientific and technological heights of e.g. Germany, but the French haven't been slackers, either-- they've been an advanced scientific and very innovative nation as well as a place known for its fine wines and cuisine.

[FerrisB]

walons wrote,

"PaulC didn't demolish Zarkov's argument about birth-rates, although he might think he did. He merely points out that France is dying less quickly than the rest of Europe. The difference between the US and France fertility rates may be small, but the US is just above replacement level, while France is below it."

That's total bull. This demographic horsecrap has to be one of the most ridiculous canards brought out by the Euro-bashers. Look, deal is that Europe and the US both have pretty similar demographic patterns-- they both have a native European stock that's well below replacement level, alongside an immigrant stock with much higher birth rates. In the US, the American-born white population has a birth rate of about 1.7, well below replacement. Our overall number surpasses replacement only because immigrant Latinos have a much higher fertility rate. (African-Americans are somewhere in the middle.) Same with Europe. The Euro-born natives have a below-replacement level fertility rate, while the immigrants (who are mostly from East and South Asia and South America, despite all the press the Middle Eastern immigrants get) have levels that are a good deal higher. And as more Euro nations have recently opened their doors to immigrants, their fertility rates are gradually rising.

Also, remember that many Euro couples are simply *delaying* childbirth, not refusing it altogether. In the 1960s and 1970s, Europe actually had a *higher* trend in fertility rates (and faster growing economies) than the USA. What's happening now may be no more than a statistical blip.

[Insider]

You are all giving Krugman far too much credit for his column which was, in a word, flawed.

Here is what Krugman should have written:

1. The French economy is stagnant and does not generate enough jobs for its citizens. The French unemployment rate is 66% higher than that of the U.S.
2. Being an unemployed Frenchman is not a choice or side affect of French worker’s spending more time with their families.
3. Most importantly, French people are not more happy or satisfied as their American counterparts as Krugman suggests. In fact, its quite the opposite.
We’ve detailed all of these arguments using many of Krugman’s same sources.

We've detailed all of this at: www.independentsources

The only people in the world who believe the French are having happy family fun seem to live in the ivory towers of downtown New York.

[Evagrius]

Gotta laugh at the last two comments- typically uttered or written by intellectually tired right-wingers, ( your call, not mine).
Have you defined "unemployment" and employment?
The U.S. Feds count one hour of work in a work period, one week, as employed. I don't think the French do. Have you noticed that "temp" work is the biggest employer in the U.S.?

[howard]

Evagrius, exactly: here's an interesting discussion going on, some honest disagreement, some nice highways and biways explored, even patrick sullivan being well-mannered, and a couple of ill-informed clowns show up (was there a secret call to arms?).

my favorite moment is Brett telling us the employed French workers have to work harder than americans to support the french welfare state, when the whole point of this discussion is that the French are working less hard! doesn't that extra vacation time compute, Brett?

[Jussi]

Insider:

"We've detailed all of this at: www.independentsources"

...next to the ads for Bush and Cheney t-shirts. It's true, take a look.

[dai]

I liked the article, but wonder how the french model is sustainable in this globalized/WTO world. Isn't it LESS likely that companies will want to locate/create jobs in France? It seems that the rest of the world (i.e. East/South asia) are moving towards the U.S. model, I'm not sure how the generous welfare economies of western europe will compete in this climate. As it is, they are already losing jobs to eastern europe.

[konrad]

@"What does French reliance on technology developed in more capitalist-friendly countries (US, Japan, India) say about the viability of an economy that prides itself on working less and having more fun?":

'France's Minitel: 20 years young

The history of the internet is measured in dog years - if you've been using it for 12 months, you're an old hand; since the 1990s, and you're a veteran. But as far back as 1983, a band of pioneers started using electronic networks to communicate, share information and work more efficiently. No, not Silicon Valley geeks, nor US military scientists - but ordinary French people, long derided as the worst of technophobic old Europe. Minitel, France's precursor to the (publicly available) internet, is 20 years old, and rumours of its demise have repeatedly proved exaggerated. Indeed, Minitel may be about to come of age.'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3012769.stm

'Minitel: Quaint relic or modern business tool?
Minitel may be an ugly duckling, but it was a precocious one when it was officially launched in 1983, intended to save money on telephone directories. While the rest of the world was marvelling at fax machines, the French were using this precursor to the internet to electronically search France Telecom's database of names, addresses and numbers, as well as sending messages to one another. [..]Now exchanges are more likely to be financial. Transactions go through France Telecom and appear on the phone bill. Unlike much e-commerce, Minitel has generated both profit and trust. "Minitel is a system people trust because the service is provided by the operator, so the users do not feel like they are shopping," said France Telecom's Vincent Barnaud. "They just connect to the service. They know it will be there. They know they can't be cheated because they trust the operator and the excellence of the service, and they get the information and they go away." '

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3142862.stm

sometimes, even sclerotic state enterprises in crypto-socialist workers' paradises can be capable of useful innovations ...

[anne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/garden/23paris.html?ex=1277179200&en=3037c5ff7abf058a&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

June 23, 2005

In Paris, Romancing the Deal
By DEBORAH BALDWIN

ROBYNN ROCKSTAD-REX had a large house in Seattle. But after her husband died two years ago she ached for a little piece of Paris. "It's the one city," she said, "where I could smile again." She found herself hunched over the computer scouring real estate listings until all hours. "It was an obsession for a while," she said.

A place of one's own in the city of light: it may sound like one of those impossible dreams, brought down to earth by the rude realities of doing business in a country where notoriously slow-moving bureaucracies can give apartment hunting a nightmarish hue. But this quest ended happily.

Working with a firm called Paris Real Estate Finders - one of several such services to have sprung up in recent years - Ms. Rockstad-Rex located a pied-à-terre near Montmartre within two weeks. Taking possession took several months, but Finders held her hand the whole time, and Ms. Rockstad-Rex suggested it was actually kind of fun.

Paris, that fantasy destination for so many expats and luxury goods connoisseurs, has become an unlikely destination for Americans hoping to acquire second homes. The prospective buyers are so plentiful, in fact, that they have spawned a cottage industry of local fixers who specialize in ushering Americans through the 7 percent transfer fee, codified inheritance rules, requisite "notaire" and other bewildering rituals of French real estate.

A strong euro has scared away some buyers, but others have clearly decided that it's a sign to buy in. Though the euro has sagged a bit in recent months, many economists see it bouncing back, indicating that now may be the time to buy....

[EsmeV]

France's expensive welfare state has been a total disaster for huge numbers of young men and women of foreign descent, largely North African, who can't find jobs. They are the people you never see when you go to Paris. They don't live in the fancy neighborhoods near the Eiffel Tower and the Champs Elysees. They don't hang out in the trendy bars in the Marais or go shopping at Hermes. They are hidden away in concrete high rises on the outer suburbs of Paris - giant breeding grounds of crime, despair and more recently, Islamic fundamentalism.

French policies towards welfare, family and vacation time are wonderful if you are French and white. Otherwise, you're better off in a country that actually has a more vibrant job market like the US.

[Antoni Jaume]

Well, EsmeV, now is not precisely the best time for a muslim to immigrate to the USA. BTW, how good it is to have a 1%( or more ) of the adult active population in prison? In France minorities are overrepresented in prisons, but the number is much less in proportion. And they do not lose their political rights as is the case in some USA states.

DSW

[anne]

Esme V

Thank you for the reminder. Integration is obviously as important a need in France and elsewhere through Europe as is has been in America.