Eric Alterman Asks a Rhetorical Question

He writes:

Alterman: The lost Kinsley rule - Altercation - MSNBC.com : Jake Weisberg... is picking on Howard Dean and I can't believe it: "[Dean's] injudicious comment about the GOP being the party of white Christians was followed by his statement that 'the idea that we're going to win this war is an idea that unfortunately is just plain wrong'." Such gaffes lead to endless debate about how Howard Dean is screwing up, rather than about how Bush is screwing up." How... [can] Michael Kinsley's appointed successor... write... "gaffe"... without pointing out Kinsley's most famous observation: that "gaffe" is what Washington calls a statement by a politician that happens to be true? Would Weisberg argue that... we are "winning" the Iraq war...?... [B]oth Dean statement... are true. And it's the job of intellectuals to congratulate politicians for speaking uncomfortable truths--at least I thought it was.... I don't recall any cases in which when Kinsley wrote about such things, he was attacking the truth-tellers. But Weisberg seems to think Dean is deserving of contempt.... Am I missing something or is this as depressing as it looks?

Yes, Eric, it's as depressing as it looks.

Comments

[PingPing]

The Executive will soon clear the decks of
the Legislative monkey-suits and the SCOTUS
black-robed savants, and rule with Pentagon Psy-ops fist holding a flaming White Cross.

There never was a UAE ports deal.
There never was a Roe v Wade.
There never was a Great Society.
There never was a Rosa Parks.
There never was a New Deal.
There never was a Robber Baron Era.
There never was a Frederick Douglass.
There never was a two-party plebicite.
In fact, there never was a Republic.
US has always been a Socialist Plutocracy.
You need to have your attitude adjusted.
There are psy-chemicals now for that.
RFID tracking devices.
E-mail monitoring.
Bar-code tatooes.
Pre-emptive seizure of assets.
Unmarked graves in the Siberian tioga.

And no velvet glove this time. Pravda. Out.

[Steve Peterson]

According to religioustolerance.org:

"Adults identifying with a specific faith group are almost evenly split among Republicans, Democrats and Independents."

Dean saying that the GOP is the party of white Christians is not only false on the religion point, but includes an implied antagonism against Christianity -- which can easily be a self-fulfilling prophecy as a bunch of pervious fence sitters decide to go somewhere where they feel more welcome.

[Dale]

Steve,
I saw a graph over at Crooked Timber a few days ago that showed how heavily African American Christians skewed towards the Dems. Even theologically conerviative blakc Christians vote Dem. Perhaps if the survey you mention was filtered by race- the even split between Dem and Repubs would shift to the right for white Americans.

[Dale]

But I do agree that Dem politicians need a better touch on reaching out to religious folk. I just recently spent most of the day listening to Rabbi Michael Lerner talk religion and politics. Very impressive and inspiring.

[Steve Peterson]

Dale,

I was trying to dig up a more informative pie chart, but my googling skills are lacking. I'd imagine the breakdown does tilt toward GOP for white Christians -- but, even so, I'd be surprised if it was very big, or even the majority since there's a large group of swing voters. I think Dean forgets that a bunch of those quiet people in his audience are Christian -- not all Christians spend their time on TV arguing that the world is only 4000 years old.

Also, betting that a black Christian will identify more with the black part than the Christian part strikes me as both not so certain and an unnecessary gamble.

[anne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/18/opinion/18herbert.html?ex=1279339200&en=22332b810284bb75&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

July 18, 2005

An Empty Apology
By BOB HERBERT

One of President Bush's surrogates went before the N.A.A.C.P. last week and apologized for the Republican Party's reprehensible, decades-long Southern strategy.

The surrogate, Ken Mehlman, is chairman of the Republican National Committee. Perhaps he meant well. But his words were worse than meaningless. They were insulting. The G.O.P.'s Southern strategy, racist at its core, still lives.

"Some Republicans gave up on winning the African-American vote, looking the other way or trying to benefit politically from racial polarization," said Mr. Mehlman. "I am here today as the Republican chairman to tell you we were wrong."

He made his remarks during an appearance in Milwaukee at the annual convention of the N.A.A.C.P., which has a relationship with President Bush reminiscent of the Hatfields' relationship with the McCoys. In a chilling act of political intimidation, the Internal Revenue Service responded to criticism of Mr. Bush by the N.A.A.C.P.'s chairman by launching an investigation of the group's tax-exempt status.

The Southern strategy meant much, much more than some members of the G.O.P. simply giving up on African-American votes. Put into play by Barry Goldwater and Richard Nixon in the mid- to late 1960's, it fed like a starving beast on the resentment of whites who were scornful of blacks and furious about the demise of segregation and other civil rights advances. The idea was to snatch the white racist vote away from the Democratic Party, which had committed such unpardonable sins as enacting the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts and enforcing desegregation statutes.

The important thing to keep in mind was how deliberate and pernicious the strategy was. Last month a jury in Philadelphia, Miss., convicted an 80-year-old man, Edgar Ray Killen, of manslaughter in the slaying of three civil rights workers - Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwerner and James Chaney - in the summer of 1964. It was a crime that made much of the nation tremble, and revolted anyone with a true sense of justice.

So what did Ronald Reagan do in his first run for the presidency, 16 years after the murder, in the summer of 1980? He chose the site of the murders, Philadelphia, Miss., as the perfect place to send an important symbolic message. Mr. Reagan kicked off his general election campaign at the Neshoba County Fair in Philadelphia, an annual gathering that was famous for its diatribes by segregationist politicians. His message: "I believe in states' rights." ...

[kharris]

Depressing on both sides. The point of the article is that Democratic leaders are busy drawing attention to their own ineptitude and lack of principle, and that seems pretty much on the mark.

Was it Ickes that announced he's going to develop a list of potential Democratic voters outside the Party mechanism, because he thinks Dean can't do the job? That was a nice touch. Take back Congress? Yeah, right.

[liberal]

Dale wrote, "Perhaps if the survey you mention was filtered by race- the even split between Dem and Repubs would shift to the right for white Americans."

Right. I was just about to post the same thing, less cogently.

[liberal]

anne quoted, "So what did Ronald Reagan do in his first run for the presidency, 16 years after the murder, in the summer of 1980? He chose the site of the murders, Philadelphia, Miss., as the perfect place to send an important symbolic message."

We can only hope that in years hence Reagan will be reviled for the despicable human being he actually was.

[liberal]

Steve Peterson quoted, "Adults identifying with a specific faith group are almost evenly split among Republicans, Democrats and Independents."

Not true of Jews.

[ken melvin]

Ickes is acting as Hillary's point man trying to neuter Dean. As to track records; Dean's batting near a thousand. The Dems should quit abetting the Repubs.

[Michael Carroll]

Stating that the "idea that we're going to win this war is an idea that unfortunately is just plain wrong." Without contex it can REALLY only be interpreted as saying "we're gonna lose." I recognize that this is a sh*tty little war but it's simply NOT OK for a national politician to make public pronouncements like that. Put yourself in the shoes of the troops. I mean none of us would tell our kid he's gonna lose in the middle of a baseball game. I like Howard Dean but calling this one a 'gaffe" is probably the most generous way of putting it.

[Steve LaBonne]

Ken Melvin nailed it. The problems of the Democratic Party have a face- the face of Hillary Clinton. I would stay home before I would vote for another triangulating opportunist like her.

Michael Carroll- I call bullshit. Don't start with the "we must support the troops" crap, which is always the last refuge of a scoundrelly President. The best support we can give the troops is to get them the hell out of there before any more of them are killed for nothing, and telling the truth about the war helps bring that day nearer.

[Bruce Webb]

"but it's simply NOT OK for a national politician to make public pronouncements like that"

Who wants to be the last man to die for a mistake? History shows that Macnamara and Johnson both knew we would ultimately lose Vietnam years before the end. Yet they let thousands of American boys die rather than admit that. That was moral cowardice. And anyone who suggests that national politicians put electoral considerations above the lives of American boys, and now girls, needs to do a little more self-reflection.

We lost Iraq on the day we rolled in. Some people knew that, others didn't. And the latter have been lecturing the former about the necessity to "stay the course" ever since. Well they were wrong and continue to be wrong and more and more the American people are showing they understand that.

This is Bush's war and like its author is a miserable failure and it is time for more politicians to be standing up and stating it like it is. The whole notion that the way to "Support the troops" is to allow them to continue to die is lunacy.

[Doctor Jay]

Well, as regards Hillary, while you see her as a triangulating opportunist, I say that she and Bill's policy takes fit me like a glove.

[anne]

Of course, since we destroyed the Iraqi government however needlessly for Iraq was completely contained, was no threat to America, and the government in no way responsible for the attack on America, of course since Iraq has an elected government and constitution we could leave Iraq immediately and save the terrible human harm that is being borne and the billions of dollars spent weekly. Since we won, we really really really could leave.

[save_the_rustbelt]

Once again the Democrats form a circular firing squad, probably allowing the GOP to reelect many of the incumbent dingbats who should be benched.

The Dems will not be a majority party until they allow blue collar pro-life voters back into the party in some meaningful way.

You heard it hear.

[Silent E]

"Put yourself in the shoes of the troops."

Now you put yourself in the shoes of their loved ones. "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" That's the kind of courage we need in the White House right now.

[Karlsfini]

"Who wants to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

Also, who should be the first man to go to prison for that mistake?

[Tom Cecere]

I guess I'm wondering more about the notion of "intellectuals" than any of this other stuff. Dean succeeded brilliantly in his "White Christian" statement, because it accurately reflects Bush Republicans, and actively makes secular conservatives uncomfortable. And, of course, 40% of the country knew attacking Iraq was wrong, so it's hardly a miracle that Dean was one of them.

But circling back, why does anyone talk about intellectuals any more? They have about as much relevance as artists, no? We're just fondly nostalgic for a time when one or two people could take up a point of view and convice "society" that it was right. As long as it's our point of view.

And finally, most "intellectuals" are just political hacks with a point of view that they are required (by patrons or peer pressure) to present. Ask anyone with a political postion, "Would you (or did you) say the same thing if (when) your guy was in charge?" and you'll see why no one trusts most of these people.

[Jim S]

Was Dean speaking of the war in Iraq or the "War on Terrorism". If it was the latter he is absolutely correct. Even though crucified for saying it, those (I do believe they include a man named Kerry.) who say that the best we can do is push them down to the point of a manageable threat are correct. We will always have extremists who will resort to violence among us. Even if virtually the entire Muslim world adopted democracy and their economies improved drastically they would produce Islamists much as the U.S. produces people like Rudolph or McVey.

[anne]

Part of being a democracy, and especially an American democracy, is that the military is under civilian control. Our soldiers are our support, but we make policy effecting our soldiers. We sadly fought a war against Iraq and won whatever we might imagine there was to have won, now leave and stop the terrible terrifying human and material waste.

[anne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/15/opinion/15herbert.html?ex=1281758400&en=4aa46475578896ac&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

August 15, 2005

Lives Blown Apart
By BOB HERBERT

Sema Olson was in the living room watching television when the phone rang. It was the Department of the Army calling. A voice asked if she'd heard from her son in the past 24 hours.

Ms. Olson tried to ward off the panic. "Is he still alive?" she asked.

After verifying her identity, the man on the phone assured her that her son, Bobby Rosendahl, who was stationed in Iraq, was still alive. But he'd been badly wounded.

With that Saturday night phone call, life as Ms. Olson had known it came to an end. Her family's long, long period of overwhelming sacrifice was under way.

Bobby Rosendahl, a 24-year-old Army corporal (and avid golfer) from Tacoma, Wash., was literally blown into the air last March 12 when an improvised explosive device detonated beneath his Stryker armored vehicle. He remembers landing on his back, with fuel spilling all around him and insurgents firing at him from the roof of a mosque.

Ms. Olson, during an interview in Washington, D.C., where Corporal Rosendahl is being treated at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center, quietly cataloged her son's wounds:

"Both of his heels and ankles were crushed. He had a compound fracture of his femur in two places. Three-quarters of his kneecap was missing. His thigh was blown away. He had many, many open wounds, which all have closed except four right now."

She paused, sighed, then went on: "His left leg was amputated three weeks after he arrived here. He's not willing to give up his right leg. He's hoping to save it. All he wants to do is golf again. But we don't know. He's had 36 surgeries so far."

When you talk to close relatives of men and women who have been wounded in the war, it's impossible not to notice the strain that is always evident in their faces....

[anne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/15/opinion/15herbert.html?ex=1255579200&en=c6d0a53544563b0e&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

October 15, 2004

Paralyzed, a Soldier Asks Why
By BOB HERBERT

DALE CITY, Va.

Sunlight was pouring through the doorway to the furnished basement of the neat two-story home on Reardon Lane. The doorway had been widened to accommodate the wheelchair of Army Staff Sgt. Eugene Simpson Jr., who was once a star athlete but now, at age 27, spends a lot of time in his parents' basement, watching the large flat-screen TV.

I asked the sergeant whether he ever gets depressed. "No," he said quickly, before adding, "I mean, I could say I was sad for a while. But it didn't really last long."

Sergeant Simpson's expertise is tank warfare. But the Army is stretched thin, and the nation's war plans at times have all the coherence of football plays drawn up in the schoolyard. When Sergeant Simpson's unit was deployed from Germany to Iraq, the tanks were left behind and the sergeant ended up bouncing around Tikrit in a Humvee, on the lookout for weapons smugglers and other vaguely defined "bad guys."

He said he felt more like a cop than a soldier.

One evening last April, Sergeant Simpson was the passenger in the lead vehicle of a four-vehicle convoy on a routine patrol in Tikrit. "It was a little housing area," he said. "We were just there to show a presence."

Iraqi soldiers were in the second vehicle of the convoy.

"I looked back and the Iraqi truck had stopped for some reason," Sergeant Simpson said.

He waved the driver forward, but the truck remained motionless. "That was odd," he said. "They wouldn't follow us....

[ken melvin]

I suggest a democratic party made up of single issue members.

[trotsky]

Speaking of gaffes, have you all seen this Wall St. Journal editorial from Feb. 23?

"We think the American people should be getting ready to accept, if they haven't already, the prospect that the whole ... effort may be doomed; it may be falling apart beneath our feet."

--- snip ---

"Hence the question: Are developments on the ground making hash of our original, commendable objectives?"

--- snip ---

"... At home it will be a traumatic experience to have lost a war in which thousands of Americans have died in vain. The only thing is that continuin in circumstances so unprepossessing could be a worse disaster."

That's Feb. 23, 1968, of course.

[Charles]

Kinsley has done plenty of sliming of truthtellers. He wrote a particularly snotty OpEd ridiculing the Downing Street memo (WaPo, 6/12/05, "No Smoking Gun") and calling people who said it proved Bush had fixed the intelligence were "paranoid" and "extremist".

Usually, he's careful enough to pick slightly more plausible targets than genial Uncle Howard, so people don't notice. But once or twice a year, he peels back the liberal wonk mask and reveals the repulsive face of someone for whom there is nothing except expedience and self-gratification.

[dubblblind]

Is Howard Dean the one who is screwing up? The Onion is looking in a different direction:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45793

Democrats Vow Not To Give Up Hopelessness

February 27, 2006 | Issue 42•09

WASHINGTON, DC—In a press conference on the steps of the Capitol Monday, Congressional Democrats announced that, despite the scandals plaguing the Republican Party and widespread calls for change in Washington, their party will remain true to its hopeless direction.

"We are entirely capable of bungling this opportunity to regain control of the House and Senate and the trust of the American people," Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) said to scattered applause. "It will take some doing, but we're in this for the long and pointless haul."

"We can lose this," Reid added. "All it takes is a little lack of backbone."

Despite plummeting poll numbers for the G.O.P nationwide and an upcoming election in which all House seats and 33 Senate seats are up for contention, Democrats pledged to maintain their party's sheepish resignation."

I would point out, for the sake of contrast, that Dean has a backbone and is sans sheepish resignation. Of course there are a lot of sheep in this country today, not just the mainstream Dems, who are letting the Rethugs lead them (and the rest of us) to the slaughter.

And thank you Anne for continuing to remind us of the immense human cost of this war and, by extension, the soulless idiocy of remarks like Michael Carroll's.

[save_the_rustbelt]

Republicans in Ohio and Michigan are raising the state minimum wages.

Why this sudden show of altruism?

The Democrats got themselves organized and are threatenting to put ballot initiatives on the November ballot. The initiatives would probably lose but would increase Dem turnout.

Maybe there is hope for the Dems, at least a little.

[a different chris]

>I mean none of us would tell our kid he's gonna lose in the middle of a baseball game.

They're not kids.

[Ari]

"Put yourself in the shoes of the troops. I mean none of us would tell our kid he's gonna lose in the middle of a baseball game."

OK; we won, so withdraw from Iraq immediately and save the bodies and minds of American soldiers.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

I say this as someone who supporting Dean way back before the national media knew who he was or took him seriously: As correct and prescient as he may be on policy, the man has a poor touch when it comes to working the press, and that is a vital skill for a political leader to have. Dean gets beat up, a la Weisberg, for saying things that are dead right. It's a knack he has. I wish he knew how to make the press love him, but he doesn't. In that regard, you can contrast him with empty suits who know how to get good press.

We can talk all day about how political journalism is flawed. I'm on that bandwagon. But sometimes you have to play the cards you're dealt, and this is a hand Dean doesn't play well. That, I gather, was Weisberg's fundamental point, and I wish he'd found something new to say in support of it instead of recycling conventional wisdom.

If Dean can figure out how to work the media better, they will love him for it, since their expectations for him are so low. I'm holding out for the "new Dean."

[Ari]

All I know is that there is no conceivable sane reason for American soldiers to continue to police Iraq. We are draining ourselves and I would bet we have spent more in Iraq than in all the foreign aid we have ever extended. I wonder....

[liberal]

save_the_rustbelt wrote, "The Dems will not be a majority party until they allow blue collar pro-life voters back into the party in some meaningful way."

Huh? The party isn't keeping them out. They're keeping themselves out.

And frankly, if anyone is crazy enough to vote for a party that thinks abortion should be outlawed even in the case of rape, I won't be missing them if they don't want to join my party.

[liberal]

Tyrone Slothrop wrote, "We can talk all day about how political journalism is flawed. I'm on that bandwagon. But sometimes you have to play the cards you're dealt, and this is a hand Dean doesn't play well."

I agree.

On the other hand, it's pretty amusing that the media like to beat up on Dean, yet suck up to Bush, who IMHO has zero charisma and oozes insincerity.

[david]

I'd worry more about Dean's ability with the press if I hadn't read Weisberg's astonishingly complacent reporting in 2000. The "focus group on viagra" joke was just the sort of lame insider's conventional wisdom crack that would lead to Weisberg's rise to the top. He's the kind of guy who thinks "limousine liberal" is both clever and damning; but he still writes about how John Kerry really wanted him for Skull and Bones. Somerby's archives would make for a pretty scary trip.

Weisberg's article or series, I can't remember which, on how "we liberals" really need to acknowledge that Bush did good things for education in Texas -- I believe Houston and Rod Page were examples, though maybe I'm rewriting and I don't have the heart to look -- stands as one of the really bad pieces of reporting of that very bad year. Now, after supporting this stupid war, and talking about how right he was to be wrong, he has the guts to write about how Dean doesn't know how to work complacent fools like himself. Yuck.

[JRossi]

Dean is a smart aleck, and nobody here in flyover country likes a smart aleck, especially when he's right. The Democrats would do well to get rid of him and get smooth southerner (Bill Clinton type) instead.

[sglover]

"We can talk all day about how political journalism is flawed. I'm on that bandwagon. But sometimes you have to play the cards you're dealt, and this is a hand Dean doesn't play well. That, I gather, was Weisberg's fundamental point, and I wish he'd found something new to say in support of it instead of recycling conventional wisdom."

More likely, you need a coordinated, corporate-backed propaganda machine, similar to what the GOP's built. Not an easy thing to do, or an especially desirable one, if you're thinking of small-'d' democratic values. But I think that machine has a lot more to do with Republican fortunes than the occasional gaffe coming from a Dean or a Gore. We can all easily think of many things that our idiot President has said (e.g., his notorious 'trifecta' remark) that, somehow, magically escaped the mau-mauing that Dean's supposedly outlandish 'scream' attracted.

[Emma Anne]

"They're not kids."

It is is not a baseball game.

[Emma Anne]

"As correct and prescient as he may be on policy, the man has a poor touch when it comes to working the press, and that is a vital skill for a political leader to have. "

I seriously doubt if any Democrat, however smooth, would have had this "skill" in the last few years. The press was seeing what it wanted to see. Perhaps now that everything W has touched has turned to shit we'll get more evenhanded treatement. But the press largely decides how to take things based on their own preconceptions. Example: Dean never said anything remotely as stupid as "Saddam wouldn't let the inspectors in" but that statement was cordially ignored.

And if you think the press would have given credence to Bill Clinton, I'd like to see your evidence. During his presidency they were going to great lengths to convince the public to be horrified by the guy's sexual misbehavior and evincing great frustration that we wouldn't go along. His "smoothness" wasn't a factor in how they treated him.

[craig tindale]

Worse there is a real US censorship propaganda process in place take for instance the recent documentary The Power of Nightmares. This available on google throughout the world, except all of my US friends have been blocked from watching it. The doucmentary basically uncovers the war on terrorism as a scam invented by Donald Rumsfeld and co, a complete sham

but no one in the US can watch it the US will be like China in the next 2 years

Here is the link for those of you outside of Soviet America

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=nightmares+bbc

[bakho]

The behind the scenes truth is that the Republicans have a very sophisticated opposition research organization that pays people to monitor statements of opponents and to file them for future attacks. Sooner or later any politician is bound to say something that they can fan into controversy. They do this to all their opponents, even people like Al Gore who are careful about what they say. The real truth is that 99.9% of what Dean says is non-controversial, but the Republican hit squad is on the look for that 0.1% that can be used to flame their target.

This tactic can be used against any political target. It is especially attractive for use by those who are more interested in increasing their own political power than governing the country. Don't forget that according to Bush operatives, John McCain has an out of wedlock black child and suffers from PTSD and Max Cleland who sacrificed his body to save his fellow soldiers is a traitor. John Kerry is a coward because he left Vietnam after being wounded 3 times rather dying as a hero like Rambo.

Anyone who criticizes DeanSpeak should juxtapose that with BushSpeak. BushSpeak is so full of jarring gaffes that the press has lost interest.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

"We can all easily think of many things that our idiot President has said (e.g., his notorious 'trifecta' remark) that, somehow, magically escaped the mau-mauing that Dean's supposedly outlandish 'scream' attracted."

I agree. I don't understand why Bush appeals to the media, since he grates on me. But it works (until lately, I suppose).

There are some pols who get good press, whether or not they deserve. Sen. Obama is one (and in my book, he deserves it -- but they like him on style, not substance).

"The behind the scenes truth is that the Republicans have a very sophisticated opposition research organization that pays people to monitor statements of opponents and to file them for future attacks."

I don't doubt this, but Google I would tend to think it's less necessary. I think the Republicans better understand that an effective communications strategy is about branding, simple messages, and repitition. It's about selling characteristics, not winning a policy debate. Participation in high-school or collegiate debating is not a virtue in this arena -- it tends to make you think you know what you're doing when you don't.

[dubblblind]

Dean is a bit rough around the edges which only compounds his problem of speaking the truth. Americans aren't used to hearing the truth from their politicians and it isn't clear that it's something they are ready for. Hearing the truth means talking about unpleasant realities and facing difficult choices. That's a lot harder than hearing about turning corners, freedom on the march, staying the course and how everything is fine and getting better, no matter how smooth the talker.

[BillCross]

"The behind the scenes truth is that the Republicans have a very sophisticated opposition research organization that pays people to monitor statements of opponents and to file them for future attacks."

I would say they have a behind the scenes group that takes what the opposition says then slants and repeats things incorrectly until they have manufactured a gaffe for future attacks. That is what they did to Gore and to Dean wrt the scream.

[ken melvin]

After the Swift Boating of Kerry and the Roving of Max Cleland, how can anyone still blame the victims of the wurlitzer?

[cafl]

Sen. George Aiken of VT accurately advised the US to "declare victory and go home" from Vietnam in 1966. Naturally, we wasted several years and thousands of lives before leaving. Notice that Howard Dean is also from Vermont. Maybe I should move there. People seem to have their head on straight and tell the truth.

I am tired of the deja vu feeling Iraq war discussions give me every time I read them.

[Dale]

cafl,
I would just add that there were thousands of US servicemen and women killed in those remaining years-- but there may have been a million or more Vietnamese people killed during that period.

[cafl]

Dale -- agreed.

In case others haven't read this, Gen. Odom has a feeling of deja vu as well. Here is the link or click the url under my name.

http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&backgroundid=0078--

[Michael Carroll]

I didn't get the url switch to delong.typepad.com and had tried www.j-bradford-delong.net about 1,000 times before I got the impulse to try technorati. I was like a heroine addict in withdrawal...

Anyway, I'm glad I got the chance to provide the straw man for everyone to pick apart. Setting my own facile analogies aside. I'd like to say it's obvious a lot of people here thing you can beat brainwashing with brainwashing which is basically just idiotic. I don't have any problem with people opposing the war, I don't have any problem with pulling the troops out yesterday. I'd say from the start I was about 60% against the war and nothing over the last three years has budged be from that position except the incredible incompetence displayed by the Bush administration. So I feel sympathy for the arguement that we should get out.

But people here have to stop sniffing their own piss. You can't beat brainwashing with brainwashing. Not everything we have done in Iraq is bad and not everyone in Iraq hates us. It is just as stupid to say "we are going to win" and leave it at that as it is to say "we are going to lose" and leave it at that but if the first statement is vapid the second is just poisonous. Pardon me for advocating common sense, but If your in national politics and you want to influence the debate don't alienate the majority of Americans who at the very least want to get out of this mess with some dignity.