Israel Inflicts an Enormous Strategic Defeat Upon Itself

"Justice" Minister Haim Ramon inflicts an enormous defeat upon Israel:

Legitimate targets II: Posted by Henry. The New York Times today.

"We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world," Justice Minister Haim Ramon told Israeli radio, "to continue this operation, this war, until Hezbollah won't be located in Lebanon and until it is disarmed." Mr. Ramon also raised the possibility of an expanded air assault, saying "all those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah."

And, of course, we have Jonathan Chait thanking God that Israel is fighting according to the just war tradition, and is trying to minimize civilian casualties and collateral damage as it responds to Hezbollah's crimes:

The Plank: Hezbollah began the crisis with an act of war that included a cross-border incursion and a kidnapping. Israel retaliated by attacking the parts of Lebanon's infrastructure that could be used to spirit the kidnapped soldiers out of the country, and followed it up by trying to destroy Hezbollah's artillery. In so doing they made every effort to minimize civilian casualties, including dropping leaflets warning residents to leave the targetted areas. Hezbollah has been lobbing rockets in the general direction of Israeli cities with no intent other than to kill civilians.

And Richard Cohen thanks God that Israel has thrown the just war tradition into the toilet, and is taking "disproportionate" action in response to Hezbollah's crimes:

. . . No, It's Survival: Israel may or may not be the land of milk and honey, but it certainly seems to be the land of disproportionate military response -- and a good thing, too.... Anyone who knows anything about the Middle East knows that proportionality is madness.... The only way to ensure that babies don't die in their cribs and old people in the streets is to make the Lebanese or the Palestinians understand that if they, no matter how reluctantly, host those rockets, they will pay a very, very steep price....

Israel is, as I have often said, unfortunately located, gentrifying a pretty bad neighborhood. But the world is full of dislocated peoples.... [W]ho today cries for the Greeks of Anatolia or the Germans of Bohemia? These calls for proportionality rankle. They fall on my ears not as genteel expressions of fairness, some ditsy Marquess of Queensberry idea of war, but as ugly sentiments pregnant with antipathy toward the only democratic state in the Middle East...

Comments

[rilkefan]

At Obsidian Wings, Sebastian Holsclaw argues that "proportionality" is little understood: http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2006/07/assymetric_warf.html

[save the rustbelt]

1400 missiles?

So what is proportionate?

And why should Hezbollah survive?

Sounds like the ground war is being limited for now. Ugly business.

[wcw]

Traditionally, it is those who wish to kill other human beings who bear the affirmative burden, not those who wish to defend their survival.

I am not a fan of Hezbollah's, but I can't see that question asked and keep quiet.

Ugly business, indeed.

[fred c. dobbs]

"all those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah."

Except perhaps the ones who are still hiding in their basements because they are too afraid of being killed by Israeli bombs as they flee? Or the ones who will stay in their homes because they don't want Israel to annex more "vacant' Arab lands?

[luci]

..."And, of course, we have Jonathan Chait thanking God that Israel is fighting according to the just war tradition"...

Chait at TNR is understandable. But why o why does the LA Times let his crap in?

[A. Zarkov]

m nt sr f th cstmr rls f wr ncld r vn dfn wht prprtnt rspns t ggrssn s, bt ths rls crtnl rqr tht n rm nt t hd bhnd cvlns. Thts wh th Gnv Cnvntn mndts tht rrglr mlts (lk Th Prt f Gd) crr thr rms pnl, nd wr clrl vsbl nsgn t qlf fr th prtctns grntd t cptrd cmbtnts. f crs th dnt. Dtt fr Gz, whr Hms trrrsts wll tk thr wn chldrn b th hnd whn th g t mssl lnchr. n ths w th cn gt gd nws ftg f srl shld strk th mssl lnchr. Ths s nt t s tht thr s n sch thng s rsnbl d f prprtnt rspns. f smn stps n m t, httng hm n th hd wth bsbll bt wld crtnl b dsprprtnt rspns. Th prpr rspns wld b chwtch t. Bt spps tht t stp s prld t knf stb. Thn th bsbll bt rspns s crtnl rsnbl. f smn trs t rb m wth knf, mst ppl thnk wld b jstfd n sng gn t prtct myslf, vn f hv th ptn f nl sng knf. n ths knd f sttn y s whtvr mns y nd t srvv. dnt thnk n prsn r cntr prctcs prprtnl rspns whn th blv thr srvvl r vn vtl ntrst s t stk. BTW t ths wh r s pst bt srls rspns, dnt hr y cmpln bt th hrrbl trcts cmmttd b Rss gnst Chchnyns. Hr r sm qts frm Rssn sldrs:. " rmmbr Chchn fml snpr. W jst tr hr prt wth tw rmrd prsnnl crrrs, hvng td hr nkls wth stl cbls. Thr ws lt f bld, bt th bys ndd t." "Th smmr xctns dn't jst tk plc gnst sspctd fghtrs. n -yr-ld rm ffcr rcntd hw h drwnd fml f fv--fr wmn nd mddl-gd mn--n thr wn wll." S th nxt tm y hr Ptn tk srl t tsk bt thr dsprprtnt rspns thnk bt Chchyn.

[Barry]

Another: "all those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah."

fred c. dobbs : "Except perhaps the ones who are still hiding in their basements because they are too afraid of being killed by Israeli bombs as they flee? Or the ones who will stay in their homes because they don't want Israel to annex more "vacant' Arab lands?"

Oh, them most of all. Unless they're not counted, because basements are nice - the bodies are already buried and out of sight.

[wkwillis]

As for the Germans of Bohemia, they supported the Nazis enthusiastically.
As for the Greeks of Anatolia, the numbers of refugee Turks was roughly equal to the numbers of refugee Greeks.

[dilbert dogbert]

Zarkov must have riled up the Prof a bunch to get disevowelled!!

[sglover]

Why am I not surprised that a tool like Chait thinks Israel's doing the right thing? Christ, by now I'd expect TNR to have a fully-automated "Shill For Tel Aviv" column-generating program....

[wcw]

In re TNR, it puzzles me that anyone still listens to them. Getting one war wrong can happen to anyone; on the next one, I expect people to hear buzzing noises rather than words.

As for the comment elision, BDL has a soft spot for Zarkov. Generally he unceremoniously deletes, as in my erstwhile ad-hominem directed at the same worthy (who, let it be said, deserved it). Disemvowelment would seem the kinder and gentler solution.

Maybe next time, I'll rate it, too.

[A. Zarkov]

I’m not sure if the customary rules of war include or even define what a “proportionate response to aggression is, but these rules certainly require that an army not to hide behind civilians. That’s why the Geneva Convention mandates that irregular militias (like “The Party of God”) carry their arms openly, and wear a clearly visible insignia to qualify for the protections granted to captured combatants. Of course they don’t. Ditto for Gaza, where Hamas terrorists will take their own children by the hand when they go to a missile launcher. In this way they can get good news footage if Israel should strike the missile launcher. This is not to say that there is no such thing as a reasonable idea of proportionate response. If someone steps on my toe, hitting him in the head with a baseball bat would certainly be a disproportionate response. The proper response would be “ouch—watch it.” But suppose that toe step is a prelude to knife stab. Then the baseball bat response is certainly reasonable. If someone tries to rob me with a knife, most people think I would be justified in using a gun to protect myself, even if I have the option of only using a knife. In this kind of situation you use whatever means you need to survive. I don’t think any person or country practices proportional response when they believe their survival or even a vital interest is at stake.

BTW to those who are so upset about Israel’s response, I don’t hear you complain about the horrible atrocities committed by Russia against Chechnyans. Here are some quotes from Russian solders:.

"I remember a Chechen female sniper. We just tore her apart with two armored personnel carriers, having tied her ankles with steel cables. There was a lot of blood, but the boys needed it."

"The summary executions don't just take place against suspected fighters. One 33-year-old army officer recounted how he drowned a family of five--four women and a middle-aged man--in their own well."

So the next time you hear Putin take Israel to task about their disproportionate response, think about Chechyna.

[A. Zarkov]

“As for the Germans of Bohemia, they supported the Nazis enthusiastically.”

The people dislocated by WWII extend far beyond the Germans of Bohemia. Over 16 million ethnic Germans were “dislocated” (forcibly expelled) from East Prussia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungry, Rumania, Yugoslavia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and the USSR. Somewhere between 2 and 3 million died as a result of their expulsions. How can anyone justify such a program without believing in collective guilt on a most massive scale? If you go down the road of collective guilt, you won’t like where you end up

[dale]

"If you go down the road of collective guilt, you won’t like where you end up"

But isn't that at the heart of the criticism of Israel's "dispropotionate" response?

[LHirsch]

A.Zharkov and save the rustbelt asked about customary definitions of "proportionate response." This is from Prof. Leslie Green in *The Contemporary Law of Armed Conflict* (1993):

"While the [UN] Charter restricts the right to resort to measures of a
warlike character to those required by self-defence, its provisions only
relate to the jus ad bellum. Once a conflict has begun, the limitations of
Article 51 become irrelevant. This means there is no obligation upon a party
resorting to war in self-defence to limit his activities to those essential
to his self-defence. Thus, if an aggressor has invaded his territory and
been expelled, it does not mean that the victim of the aggression has to
cease his operations once his own territory has been liberated. He may
continue to take advantage of the jus in bello, including the principle of
proportionality, until he is satisfied that the aggressor is defeated and no
longer constitutes a threat."

[A. Zarkov]

“But isn't that at the heart of the criticism of Israel's "dispropotionate" response?”

It might lie at the heart of the criticism, but I think it’s still incorrect. Punishment and deterrence can become commingled. Consider the MAD doctrine we had in the cold war, where retaliation essentially amounted to collective punishment. If the USSR attacks the US, then the US will completely destroy the USSR. We certainly threatened that during the Cuban missile crisis. The Arabs need to believe that something really horrible will happen to them if they attack Israel. Egypt and Jordan got stung several times trying to destroy Israel, so they seem to have given up on that idea. That could change if they think Israel is no longer willing to hit back much harder. Deterrence lies at the heart of their survival.

[A. Zarkov]

LHirsch:

Thanks for the reference. Israel is then acting in accord with the customary rules of warfare if I understand the quote correctly.

[Warren]

S wht's th nrms strtgc dft? r s tht jst wshfl thnkng n Brd's prt? Hzbllh bys n lw. t s nt vn llwd t xst. T sk srl t fllw lws tht dn't ppl t t's nm s grtsq. lw fr jst n sd s nt lw.

[otto]

The Germans can go back to Bohemia now that its in the EU, and the greeks will soon be back in Anatolia.

[A. Zarkov]

“The Germans can go back to Bohemia now that its in the EU ….”

Yes, but that’s a drop in the bucket. Can the Sudeten Germans return to the Czech Republic and get their property back confiscated by Benes Decrees?

[otto]

They can go back, that's the main thing.