Hondas and Toyotas vs. Fords and Chevys

Matthew Yglesias writes:

Matthew Yglesias: Reliability: Asked how to choose a good mechanic, Tyler Cowen responds that you should buy a Honda or a Toyota and you probably won't need a mechanic to do anything beyond the super-routine. I've never owned a car, but in second-hand anecdotal terms that definitely seems to be the case -- folks who own Hondas or Toyotas, even pretty cheap ones, rarely have problems whereas American cars are plagued with reliability issues. This often strikes me as an under-analyzed element in the saga of American deindustrialization; maybe it's not even true that American durable goods are far less reliable than Japanese brands, but it's certainly what a lot of people think.

Well, we've bought two Hondas (Acuras, actually), one Toyota, one Subaru, one Volvo, one Ford, and one Chevy.

The Toyota is still too new to have a view, but so far no problems at all...

The Hondas have been wonderful...

The Subaru had one mysterious problem that went away when we did the 30K service 5K early, and has not returned...

The Volvo was unpleasant--but not because of the Swedes. The dealership in Arlington VA had installed a remote entry/alarm that fouled up the elecrical system somehow...

As for the Ford and the Chevy, our experience--well, it would take not just money but guns and lawyers as well to induce us to buy another one.

Comments

[Neal]

From Autos canada

(quote)
Here are the top 10 most reliable cars, listed with their year of manufacture and the number of faults per 100 cars:

1) Toyota Corolla, 2000-2002, 3 faults

2) Honda CR-V, 1997-2002, five

3=) Honda HR-V, 1999-2005, six

3=) Toyota Celica, 2000-2006, six

5) Honda S2000, 1999-2007, seven

6) BMW 3 Series Compact, 1994-2001, nine

6=) Honda Civic, 1996-2001, nine

6=) Honda Accord, 1999-2003, nine

9) Honda Civic, 2001-2005, 10

10) Nissan Micra, 1998-2002, 11

Here are the most unreliable:

1) Alfa Romeo GTV, 1996-2003, 97

2) Renault Espace, 1997-2002, 77

3) Jaguar XK8, 1996-2006, 62

4) Renault Laguna, 2000-2007, 55

5) Fiat Multipla, 1999-2007, 52

6) Volvo S80, 1998-2006, 51

7) Land Rover Freelander, 2000-2006, 48

7) Land Rover Range Rover, 1995-2002, 48

7) Audi Allroad, 2000-2005, 48

10) Seat Alhambra, 2000-2007, 47

(end quote)

[Neal]

The SEAT Alhambra is a MPV or people-carrier manufactured by the Volkswagen Group and sold under the SEAT brand. It seats up to seven people — the 5 rear seats being all moveable or even removed leaving a flat-load floor.

The Alhambra was created under a technology sharing agreement between Ford and the Volkswagen Group, after the two companies found they were losing market share from the first generation of MPVs such as the Renault Espace and Mitsubishi Spacewagon. It has been on sale since 1996 and apart from a major restyle in 2000 it is very similar to what it was on its launch almost a decade ago, although an all-new replacement is expected in the next couple of years.

It shares most of its components and design with the very similar Ford Galaxy and VW Sharan. This has lead to the three vehicles being referred to collectively as the "Sharalaxy" or even "Shalambraxy". All three models are built in Palmela, Portugal.

[David Martin]

My 2002 Ford Focus did leave me stranded (I was able to drive into a friendly Accura dealer), something that never happened in 12 years with my made-in-Fremont pseudoCorolla (Chevy Prizm). As for upkeep costs, nothing atrocious, though I resent the air conditioner condenser failure.

[David Martin]

My 2002 Ford Focus did leave me stranded (I was able to drive into a friendly Accura dealer), something that never happened in 12 years with my made-in-Fremont pseudoCorolla (Chevy Prizm). As for upkeep costs, nothing atrocious, though I resent the air conditioner condenser failure.

[Paul]

I think it was Walter Shewhart who went to Japan after WWII at the behest of MacArthur to help get their industry into shape by using statistical methods of quality control. He reportedly expected to have them up and running like a modern industrial country in a decade. He ultimately declared his prediction in error--it only took 8 years. (OK, I'm remembering all this, so it could be a bit off in the details). The most interesting part about this is that US car manufacturers had specifically rejected Shewhart's methods, only to play catch up decades later. Maybe they're still playing catch up.

Here's a question: do US Auto unions (UAW?) include the engineers who are looking at quality control and redesigning manufacturers? I wonder if there's some kind of embedded classism within manufacturing in the US that's absent in Japan.

[vt codger]

Paul -- I think you have Walter Shewhart confused with his disciple W. Edwards Deming. I'm 98% sure that it was Deming who took Shewhart's ideas to Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

[vt codger]

I think Matthew Yglesias is perhaps a decade out of date. Up until the mid 1990s, American cars did indeed have horrible reliability problems compared to their Japanese and Korean competitors. Nowadays Detroit has largely closed the reliability gap (and a good thing too, considering the enormous complexity of modern cars).

Better advice today would, I think be a car -- Japanese if possible -- with as few fancy devices as possible. That includes things like Antilock Braking Systems that don't actually work very well. (They help a bit on dry or wet pavement, but make things worse on gravel, ice, or snow). Fancy systems add complexity to the vehicle and make repairs more frequent and costly.

I'm a Mazda guy myself (I've owned four), but we also have a Dodge Neon and a Toyota Camry in the Dooryard. The Neon has rust problems and probably the worst electrical wiring ever seen not provided by Lucas engineering. Two or three times a year I have to track down a connector that has spontaneously disconnected. But it's not horrible. It also has a bizarre mix of SAE and metric fasteners that require full sets of both kinds of tools. The Toyota is pretty reliable, but turns out to be VERY hard to work on for some non-routine maintenance items like the shift cable that broke last Summer. And it has a weird adaptive braking system that has a rather evil reputation. I don't think we'll likely buy another Toyota. Both the Neon and the Toyota are prone to occasionally generate spurious Check Engine conditions. Not a big problem if you have your own DTC readout device and know which fuse to pull to clear the condition if it is spurious, but a real nuisance for those who have to take the vehicle to a mechanic.

[Paul]

Re: Vt Codger.

I own a Dodge Neon, and I have had numerous problems with the wiring on my own car, too. And numerous other problems. (The time I broke down in front of a funeral parlor was darkly humorous for the friends who came to get me). I would not buy a Neon again.

[Crab Nebula]

You are

I have a 98 Ford. It's been great. I also recognize that statistically, you are more likely to have a trouble free experience with an Asian brand. I also know of real people who have had trouble with individual Hondas and Toyotas.

But you cannot go further than that. You may very well have a trouble free experience with a domestic car...and you'll pay less to purchase it, ESPECIALLY if you purchase used.

The best values of all are good domestic models purchased used.

[Crœsos]

Fred Clark of Slacktivist had an interesting take on the perception the mechanical unreliability of US-engineered automobiles. He argues that it is the unintended result of a deliberate, decades-long lobbying campaign by US automakers themselves claiming that any environmental or safety regulation is "technologically impossible/unfeasible". When their foreign competitors easily meet the proposed new standard US automakers look like a bunch of incompetent doofs.

Check out the original entry at:
http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2007/10/break-down.html