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July 06, 2008

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Unlike Matt's post, Hilzoy's is impeccably sourced. Regardless, this statement of hers and yours can only be described as disingenuous at best "I haven't written anything about Jesse Helms' death, since I don't like speaking ill of the dead."

Look, if either you or Hilzoy want to wander over and piss on Helms' grave directly, I'll join in and buy us all plenty of beer with which to arm ourselves.

But let's not claim we're not here to speak ill of Helms and only of the conservatives that would eulogize him when that is precisely what we are doing. I think these posts of your's, Hilzoy's, Matt's, and Klein's are ghoulish and childish.

Let's wait until the guy gets cold and the serious historical pieces come out.

I'd like to think that we already have a decent enough perspective with which to draw conclusions on Helms' character. I can't see how the above post can be characterised as "ghoulish and childish", particularly in light of the whitewashed eulogies referenced above.

Particularly because wingers are working so hard to yoke Helms with Reagan, you might want to go back and scare up some of the data on Helms trying to sabotage Reagan's efforts at disengagement with Gorbachev.

If (the living) Helms's quotes constitute pissing on (the dead) Helms's grave so be it. Bear in mind that his views were ostensibly representative of his constituency for many years, and Glade Yogins. So that he and they collaboratively did the pissing? It's complicated and requires alot of beer.

Peter, my four year old can stay on topic better.

Confidential to Peter:

FDR's court-packing plan failed (in a Democratic congress); I'm not sure what broken rules you're referring to.

Generally, Democrats who praise FDR do so for his leadership during the New Deal and the Second World War. If you are opposed to those, please state plainly.

Hilzoy does very little apart from quote Helms and his admirers. It is their words that condemn them.

Reagan's Eleventh Commandment: thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican.

Democrats *should* be quicker to praise Al Sharpton, instead of falling backward to put distance from him.

Great post. Helms was an embarrassment to the Republic. That establishment conservatives still consider him an exemplar and standard-bearer for their movement is a profoundly sad symptom of the state they have come to.

This post brings home to me something I should have realized before. In the USA, "conservative" is largely synonymous with "bigot". Standing astride history and yelling stop mostly means keeping old prejudices alive and well.

Great post, but do you really think that Kyoto would have passed sans-Helms?

Apropos of something or other, remind me - Why did Trent Lott have to hand over leadership of the Senate without having lost the majority?

Apropos of something or other, remind me - Why did Trent Lott have to hand over leadership of the Senate without having lost the majority?

Honestly? I think it was because the Bush Administration wanted a more compliant SML. I know the immediate precipitating event was something else, but I think that was the actual reason.

"Helms was an embarrassment to the Republic. That establishment conservatives still consider him an exemplar and standard-bearer for their movement is a profoundly sad symptom of the state they have come to."

A good bit of the strategy of modern conservatism is to move the conservative end-point of any debate well away from what had been the center of the range of popular views. In a world (and a press environment) in which "the middle" is often defined as just the mid-point between the two end-points, having Jesse in the game meant "the middle" moved rightward. On race, that was not the case. Jesse managed to nail down the right end of opinion on race when it otherwise might have drifted toward decency. The principle, however, is the same. By defining the right end of political thinking, he kept the perceived middle well to the rotten side of where it otherwise would have been.

Jesse was what his constituents wanted. That probably couldn't be helped, given his constituents. His ability to inflate himself in the national consciousness, though, meant that he provided cover for less egregious, less overt racism elsewhere.

I just want to point out that Jesse Helms was a registered Democrat until 1970, according to the New York Times story on his election to the Senate in 1972. He worked on the congressional staffs of two Democratic senators according to his congressional biography.

Bruce - No one is excusing Southern Dems of their past misdeeds. But he obviously felt the Democrats had left him, like Zell and Lieberman.

I'm just grateful that a man of Helms stature was able to die of old age, rather than do something rash in January when we install a black president.

Probably a dead thread, but here's the key part of the Byrd / Helms comparison:

Byrd: "These days he earns NAACP rankings that vary from the mid-80s to a full 100% in 2004 (bettering Teddy Kennedy in that year). He has repeatedly renounced and denounced his former career and said that he was wrong, and he has put those words into action. He even endorsed a black man (the product of an inter-racial marriage) for President of the United States this year."

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/7/13928/01273/439/547726

There's been tons of bullshit about this.

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