Rules of War

John Ashcroft says that it was perfectly OK for the ChiComs to use the water torture on American servicemen captured in Korea:

Waterboarding ‘Consistently’ Seen As Legal: During a hearing before the House Judiciary Committee today, former Attorney General John Ashcroft falsely claimed that waterboarding has “consistently” been defined as “not torture” and refused to agree that the use of enhanced interrogation techniques — including waterboarding — on captured U.S. soldiers is “unacceptable” or “criminal.”

REP. MAXINE WATERS: Do you think that if these techniques were used on American soldiers that they would be totally unacceptable and even criminal?...

ASHCROFT: My job, as Attorney General, was to try and elicit from the experts and the best people in the Department definitions that comported with the statues enacted by the Congress and the Constitution of the United States. And those statutes have consistently been interpreted so as to say, by the definitions that, waterboarding, as described in the CIA’s request, is not torture....

Impeach John Ashcroft. Impeach Richard Cheney. Impeach George W. Bush. Do it now.

Comments

[Vadranor]

Parliamentary inquiry: Is it possible to impeach someone who is longer in office?

[albatross]

Wow. Did I just see a quote by a former high-ranking US official, saying that the US government would not object to foreign governments torturing US citizens?

[albatross]

Wow. Did I just see a quote by a former high-ranking US official, saying that the US government would not object to foreign governments torturing US citizens?

[Lewis Carroll]

Either lying or woefully ignorant of history. Take your pick Mr. Ashcroft:

"Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

In this case from the tribunal's records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:

A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession."

from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html

[M. Carey]

I think that they are also learning from Uncle Joe (Stalin), circa 1937. The purge trials were all just SO legal and proper - almost as good as the upcoming "tribunals" at Gitmo.

[bigTom]

Ashcroft is right about one thing, whether a particular proceedure is considered to be over the line, does not depend upon who did it to whom. Arguing whether waterboarding is torture, does not depend upon who is doing (or for what reason). Now if we declared these techniques to be torture in the past, that would compose a precedent. It is possible to overcome a precedent, but I think the bar is fairly high. I would think it highly inadvisable to advise a client to do something that by precedent is illegal, by arguing that the precedent can be overturned.

[capitalistimperialistpig]

I think it may be too late to impeach Ashcroft. You could probably still toss him in the clink though.

[Porlock Hussein Junior]

With a vague impression that "clink" as in "jail" might have a connection with the Dutch language, I just checked the OED for the etymology and behold -- They don't list the word in that sense at all! I am dumbfounded. They sure dropped a clinker into that.

Whether or not the Dutch provided the word, it would be a fine thing for them to provide the clink, at the Hague. It might get crowded, though. One small copnsolation to all this is that Ashcroft and the whole gang will have to think carefully before taking a vacation in any civilized country in the world. In fact, Bush's current international tour could well be the last in his life, since once he's out of office, he is, by a more or less established precedent, no longer immune to being arrested and extradited like any more common criminal.

[Tomas]

The thing about the Bush administration is that it is so consistantly horrible as a group, that when people quit it makes them seem less like dicks.

The problem is that people who quit the administration, signed up for the job first and are, as a matter of fact, huge douchy dicks and quitting has, most likely, not dedickified them.

It is nice for Ashcroft to remind us of this.

[Matt]

George Bush wants to waterboard our soldiers!

Egad, who is this nut?

[bakho]

John Ashcroft

Military service: None

Reason: Six student deferments and one occupational deferment (teaching law at Southwest Missouri State).

Quote: "I would have served if asked."

[kharris]

I'm afraid Mr. Ashcroft is being done a terrible disservice. He has been subtly misquoted in a way that considerably distorts his meaning. Here is the actual quote:

"My job, as Attorney General, was to try to get experts and the best people in the Department to produce illicit definitions that distort the statues enacted by the Congress and the Constitution of the United States."

I hope that helps to clear up this very serious matter.

[rea]

Is it possible to impeach someone who is longer in office?

Arguably, yes, although its's never been done. The point is, the penalty for impeachment and conviction extends to removal from office and disqualification from future federal office. Because there are penalties beyond removal from office, it makes sense that leaving office does't prevent impeachment. Note that Alcee Hastings is a congressperson despite being impeached and removed as a federal judge--the Senate didn't elect to exercise its power to disqualify him from future office.

[M. Weston]

It's way too late to get impeachments through before January. But I remember thinking when I was watching "Taxi to the Dark Side" that impeachment is way too good for these guys -- they should be tried for war crimes.