The Macleans.ca Interview: Brad DeLong | Macleans.ca - Canada - Features: Q: As a general rule, Republicans say the U.S. isn't in a recession, while Democrats say it is. In your opinion, is the U.S. in or headed for a recession?
A: We’re saying it looks like it’s the weakest possible not-recession. Come July, the Commerce Department is going to revise the GDP numbers and that’s going to change things. It could make things either look less recessionary, or it could push us into determining we’re in a recession. The odds are about 50/50.
Q: In simple terms, what does a recession mean for Americans?
A: It means it’s a lot harder to get jobs. A lot more people are unemployed and without income. People who are employed are scared and eager to settle for much lower increases in real wages, or even accept real wage cuts. It means a lot of people who could be doing something useful are unable to get themselves matched with firms that can use their talent. [A recession is] something you would definitely rather avoid, even if [avoiding it] does produce some costs. It's better to have some investment flowing into the wrong sectors than it is to have all your investment proportions exactly what they should be and a whole bunch of people who could be working and want to work sitting at home, feeling poor.
Q: The Bush administration has already dealt out a pretty expensive stimulus package.
A: I a $13-trillion economy, we’re at about $150-billion of fiscal stimulus this year. That’s only one per cent. Together with what the Federal Reserve has done, everyone hopes this is going to be enough to keep us near full employment without creating an inflation problem for the longer run. But that’s just a hope at the moment.
Q: Has the sputtering economy been properly managed?
A: One way to look at it is this all starts back in 1995, when Alan Greenspan said, ‘It looks like this new economy stuff may really be there. I’m going to ignore all my staff who’s telling me about limits to growth and likelihood of inflationary pressures. I’m not going to raise interest rates and see how much high-tech investment we can get going on the grounds that this might be an opportunity for a serious boom.' Indeed, there was a lot of irrational exuberance. A lot of the world's richest people invested in Internet startups and communications companies. They paid for an enormous amount of dark fibre out of which they never got any dividends, but which did give the rest of us very cheap phone calls and data for half a decade or so.
Then comes 2000 and 2001, and it becomes clear, not that the technology has been oversold, but that the ability to use the Internet to actually make huge profits has been oversold. The Federal Reserve’s response was, ‘We need another leading sector. How about if we drop interest rates and see if we can get a construction boom going?' So, Greenspan does this and it works. In fact, it works beyond his wildest dreams. Then, there’s the irrational exuberance that comes out of the financial bubble, as [some] mortgage companies stop checking people’s loan.
Right now, we have an interesting game going on. As the housing boom unwinds, it's become clear the U.S. built perhaps three million more houses than would be supportable at 2007 housing prices. Construction employment is collapsing and the hope is that, once again, you can replace a leading sector that’s had a boom and a bubble with another one. This time the sector that’s growing is exports and import-competing manufacturing, especially as the dollar falls, first against the Europeans and against the Canadians and hopefully soon against the Asians. But the U.S. economy is already, relative to trend labour force growth, down three-quarters of a million jobs relative to last December. So even if it’s not a recession, it feels like a recession.
Q: American economist Joseph Stiglitz has made the argument that the U.S. economic problems are in part due to the war in Iraq.
A: The war has certainly pushed up oil prices a bunch, directly and indirectly. And I think the war has made us significantly weaker. A trillion dollars that could have been spent doing something useful has been spent creating a situation that, for most Iraqis, has been worse than living under the cruel, semi-totalitarian dictatorship of Saddam Hussein. It still seems to be a much more minor contribution to the current macroeconomic puzzle. I think Joe’s letting his view about the future and the likely good course of U.S. foreign policy lead him to overstate the case a bit. The argument against our adventure in Iraq would still be there even if we were still in the housing boom.
Q: Economic figures for the month of February were recently released in Canada and they showed the country's economy shrank 0.2 per cent. There’s some worry we’re on the brink of recession here.
A: If U.S. demand for Canadian exports keep falling and the U.S. goes into a recession, it seems highly likely.
Q: The federal government in Canada has taken a laissez-faire approach and promoted aggressive tax cuts as a solution. Do you have any thoughts on that?
A: I learned my macroeconomics at the knee of Martin Feldstein, back when the Republican Party in the United States was still the party of sound money and fiscal surpluses. I was just running through my class the argument Marty made around 1980: that basic utilitarian calculations suggest the United States should be saving half again as much as it is and investing it into the future. Unfunded tax cuts take what would otherwise be national savings and divert them into government deficits. While I do see a very small and limited role for tax cuts in a recession to try to prevent mass unemployment, I’m still with Marty--or at least with the old, unmuzzled Marty. Developed countries ought to be running substantial government surpluses because the opportunities for saving and investment are great, because aging populations are going to require debt capacity in the future, and because the technological revolution in medical care is going to produce a huge future demand for governments to spend money keeping people healthy. I have this instinctive, allergic reaction to unfunded tax cuts, even in recessions. And we’re not quite in a recession, yet.
Q: The presidential candidates in the U.S. have had a lot to say on the economy. How would you rate their economic platform?
A: We were sitting around here in the lounge yesterday, all feeling sorry for Douglas Holtz-Eakin, McCain’s economic guy. He is a sensible guy who’s now saying extremely silly and stupid things. He seems to have lost an internal struggle about what the McCain economic policy for the campaign should be. Phil Gramm, another of McCain's economic advisers, is smart as a whip and is a serious person for whom we have to have respect--even if he is a right-wing hyena of a magnitude rarely seen. Our hope is that everything McCain is saying about the economy right now is for shoring up [his support on] the right, [is] for campaign purposes only. Paul Krugman, on the other hand, is out there saying all of us who have hopes for the McCain economic policy are deluding ourselves.
The candidates’ economic policy [proposals] on the Democratic side [pretty much all] looked like sensible attempts to approach very hard problems--or so I thought until Hillary Clinton came out in favour of [McCain's] temporary gas tax holiday. Global warming says you want to increase gas taxes rather than diminish them, and income distribution suggests you don’t want temporary holidays because they're quickly over and have no effect on supply. To boost gasoline supply takes a long time. The McCain gas tax holiday for the summer seems to simply be a ‘let’s transfer a lot of money from the government to the oil companies while doing something that sounds like it’ll help driving consumers but actually won’t.’ Clinton’s plan is to have a gas tax holiday and pay for it by a tax on refineries; as Paul Krugman wrote, this had the effect of making the proposal pointless rather than evil. Maybe you have to give Clinton’s economic policy people credit for coming up with something that sounds good and manages to turn an economic minus into an economic zero. But it wasn’t a terribly good sign...